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Bounder
Wolfling
Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 66
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 Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:56 am Post subject: What if it's not real? |
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I hope this post doesn't offend, but simply put- what if all this isn't real?
It all sounds so strange and out there, travelling through spirit worlds, communicating with gods and demons and animal spirits, etc.
Our modern day society tends to laugh at those kinds of beliefs. Is religious/spiritual belief outdated and archaic, or is our modern-day society growing more blind to what's beyond the normal 5 senses?
Right now I'm on the fence. I want to believe, but I don't know how I can when there's no proof. :/ |
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Ravenari
Site Admin
Joined: 01 Jan 1970
Posts: 924
Location: Ellenbrook, Western Australia
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:18 am Post subject: Re: What if it's not real? |
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| Bounder wrote: | | I hope this post doesn't offend, but simply put- what if all this isn't real? |
Why does it matter?
Do you believe in love? It's not something that scientists can accurately quantify or reproduce. It's not something they can accurately synthesise or even 'prove' in a way that they can take it, quantify it, and then show it to us.
Sure they have bits and pieces of evidence. Chemical reactions, hormones, the potential of pheromones and human behaviour.
But beyond that, all we have is the commonality of our beliefs. We see people fall in love. We see them experience it. We believe in it. What if it isn't real?
The thing is, a lot of people who have fallen in love don't tend to bother with this question (they might end up asking 'why the hell does it have to be real?' if they end up with a broken heart). They don't bother with it, because they trust in it, or have faith in it. And because they know that even if they spend their entire lives trying to prove its existence, they may never be able to. It is invisible, only supported by the commonality of experiences between the people and cultures around us.
To me, shamanism is very much like this.
To shamanists who believe, particularly in the older cultures, there is a commonality of experiences (even if there is a difference in the actual customs) which unites them. They know what a 'lie' looks like from the spirits, and a truth.
And furthermore, they have the actual 'results' of their beliefs, the healed individual, the successful hunt. Yes, quite a bit of it can be debunked by completely scientific reasoning, but not all of it.
It is a choice to believe whether it is real or not. And it's that simple.
To someone who has never experienced love with a significant other before, it seems 'strange and out there.' Try and ask a child if they know in their hearts what it's like to fall in love with another person, their 'significant other' and you will get a blank look or a response like 'it's like what I feel for Mum and Dad.'
To someone who has never experienced the otherworlds or the spirits, the answer can only be 'I imagine it is like this,' or 'I do not believe, because I have never experienced it,' or as is common in Western culture, 'I do not believe, because science cannot prove it. Because it is so 'out there.'
It is all a series of choices.
I make mine because they enable me to better heal and aid people. Because science fails. Because I love my partner, and because science can't find out why, put it in a box, and muck around with it effectively in a lab.
I have said this before on my LiveJournal, but I believe because I choose to. 
It doesn't matter to me if it's real or not. The consequences of it are the same - I am and have been able to help others because of my practices and beliefs. |
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Bounder
Wolfling
Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:22 am Post subject: |
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Good answer.
I guess what I'm afraid of is completely going insane, being sucked up into an elaborate fantasy world that only I can see.
Even if what all of you is experiencing is 'real', my own experiences could be completely fake and I wouldn't know the difference. I feel like if I give in the belief, it'll just escalate and escalate and soon I'll be believing in the tooth fairy and the easter bunny again. :/
I don't really know which direction to go. |
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Ravenari
Site Admin
Joined: 01 Jan 1970
Posts: 924
Location: Ellenbrook, Western Australia
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:29 am Post subject: |
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| Bounder wrote: | | I guess what I'm afraid of is completely going insane, being sucked up into an elaborate fantasy world that only I can see. |
One of the other people on this board risks this in a very real way, and it's up to them if they want to identify themselves. But they have schizoaffective disorder. They actually know, first hand, what it is like to have hallucinations, what it is like to first think it is the spirits devoutly, and then to end up on medication unable to think because of the strength of the delusion.
That person has clawed their way out, and is learning - for the first person - the difference between a controlled journey and an involuntary hallucination. They're learning this now, which is why your questions about whether it's real or not are very familiar to me.
It's important here to realise the level of control you have over the experience, and how this differs from the actual reality of insanity. Elaborate fantasy worlds... well most people have them to some degree, some are just more elaborate than others. But I have control over that fantasy world. I may not have control over what happens in the otherworlds when I journey there, but for the most part I choose when and how I journey, how long I stay there, and when I return.
There are some parts of shamanism I can't control, but the ones I can are the most important. It divides my experiences from pure hallucination. And actually, like this other member, I have had involuntary hallucinations and I can quite safely say that my experiences of shamanism, even of the underworlds in all their horror, have never approached quite the same level of purposelessness as a flashback.
The questions to ask yourself are ones of control and a fear of lack of control. And to look at the difference between the raw experiences of people with mental illness (where hallucination is a feature) and then the voluntary experiences of shamanists.
Developing faith in yourself is important too. It sounds like you don't trust yourself to recognise if you're going down an 'irretrievable path.' |
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Tanwyn
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Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 11
Location: Huntington, WV, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:33 am Post subject: |
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While there may not be a way to scientifically prove that what we believe in is "real", many of us have had experiences that we can not explain through any other means than the supernatural. I can understand that it is hard starting out, with nothing that you can actually see, but there is definitely something there that you can feel and experience.
Have you ever walked in to a pagan or newage bookstore and had a feeling of being at peace, or at home? Have you ever attended a public ritual, or a ritual of any sort for that matter and felt a kinship to those around you? These are both very common experiences. In the case of the bookstore, you are feeling the energy associated with the place and it is something that is comfortable and familiar you to. Can I prove scientifically that there is anything different about the place? No, but I can feel and experience it none the less. The same thing is true of many sacred places throughout the world. You can walk in to a place and just *know* that that place is sacred, even if there is nothing there to mark it as such.
While science can not explain such things as medical patients recovering more quickly when they are being prayed for, there are many studies that show that that is in fact the case. There are many many things that science can not explain. That is what faith is, beleiving in that which we can not prove, but none the less know to be true.
So, can I prove to you that any of this is real? No, but I can encourage you to continue studying and learning. The more that you experience, the more you will probably find yourself at ease with what you believe.
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From the ashes of my life, I rise anew. |
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Bounder
Wolfling
Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:38 am Post subject: |
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I think it would be a lot easier to be comfortable with these things if I actually had any sort of real life exposure to it. I am rather non-religious, on the verge of being anti-religious, and I don't know anybody even vaguely local that is a shamanist. Everything I've done has been unguided and through information found on the internet... so I have no barometer to compare myself to.
It's kind of off-putting when I do genuinely want to learn more, even if it's something I won't actually pursue. |
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Tanwyn
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Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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Location: Huntington, WV, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:06 am Post subject: |
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Easier yes, but would what you ultimately end up believing be as meaningful if you did not have to struggle to get there? I think that is why so many people that are raised in a certain religion (this can be any religion, I'm not thinking of just one) end up later in life turning on that, and setting off on a new spiritual path... because they were just handed it, they never had to struggle to reach it.
Seriously though, I know it is hard. Honestly all you can really do is read, study, learn and seek out people that you can practice with. In this case, there really is no substitute for real life experience.
I'm sorry that my responses here aren't more helpful, but I don't think anyone is going to be able to tell you "this is real because x,y and z are incontrovertible fact". However, I can offer you this, if in the end none of it is real but it has given your life greater depth and meaning and you were able to help yourself, or someone else, what have you lost?
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From the ashes of my life, I rise anew. |
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Ravenari
Site Admin
Joined: 01 Jan 1970
Posts: 924
Location: Ellenbrook, Western Australia
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| Bounder wrote: | | I think it would be a lot easier to be comfortable with these things if I actually had any sort of real life exposure to it. |
It can, but sometimes it just makes things harder for people who then go 'okay, now how do I prove it wasn't just a flat out hallucination or delusion?'
It can be difficult to find people who are into it, but the internet is a good start, especially as it can help to narrow down where people are.
If only there was a shamanvox out there.  |
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lightgoddess
Admin
Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 440
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| You know, Bounder, this is a really, really good question. I think that, for me, knowing whether or not something like my religion is real comes down to knowing that what I have seen and experienced is valid with just a pinch of faith thrown in. It truly is a choice, though. |
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Kali_Ava
Wildspeaker
Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 451
Location: Tasmania
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:08 pm Post subject: The Wisdom of Insecurity |
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| Bounder wrote: | | Our modern day society tends to laugh at those kinds of beliefs. Is religious/spiritual belief outdated and archaic, or is our modern-day society growing more blind to what's beyond the normal 5 senses? |
I want to address this part specifically. It's all my opinion, of course, but I hope it starts a somewhat different thought process that has been going through this thread so far.
To answer the question, I think that modern-day society is too dependent on scientific discovery. There are so many gaps between the facts, and a lot of Americans I know are happy enough to dismiss it as God's work without a second thought. What I find appealing about Shamanism is the activity, ie. it's not passive worship.
The atheists/nihilists/etc. who have decided that only what science has proven exists are blinding themselves as well. If our society is continuing to make these starting revelations and discoveries about the nature of the universe (quantum physics anyone?), then it makes sense that there is still a lot to learn. More exists than we have proven fact. I think I've said this, but a closed mind is a horrible handicap.
Those two points are the basis for my thoughts. I'm not sure if the following is much of a stretch, but it's always been one of my favorite things to think about:
Say we look back on the ancient/out-dated beliefs. The belief systems that small communities held explained the universe. It acted as our science does for us today. Physical health, mental health, agricultural techniques, commerce... family and community, most of all. A LOT of the rituals and experiences have been scientifically explored, but that system didn't appear out of thin air. Scientifically speaking, it was developed over time and specialized to suite the community's needs. A completely arbitrary and false system of beliefs could not sustain a population for very long.
It doesn't have to all be right or wrong.
I have another short tangent: It's my opinion that only with recent/developing computer technology can we being to more accurately map out the relationship between our consciousness and our body. A lot of mental health today is focused on how what we do to our body affects our emotional well-being. Imagine going into a field like bioinformatics and being able to publish studies that tell the world how your consciousness, your will, affects your body's well-being. It needs to be explored, and I have no doubt it will some day - but I don't think it should ever be ignored in day-to-day life. It's common sense that has yet to be "proven." Or explained. Or whatever. |
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Psyche
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Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 428
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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I know that I've struggled with disbelief for years; the fear of seeming stupid, if only to myself.
I mean, what if I throw my complete belief and trust into something like say......a path where one must wear a purple hat during ritual, collect different colored stones only on Tuesdays, and pray standing on one's head (I'm just making up this 'path' by the way, for the sake of example). And say that I do all of these things, only to find out in the end that this particular path didn't suit me and as I'm standing on my head, I feel like an idiot.
What did I learn from this seemingly pointless path? Well, even though I might have felt stupid for a minute, I did learn one very important thing, and that is: to trust and believe.
In taking a chance on this (made up) path, I have practised taking that leap of faith. I have opened the door just a little bit, and have gotten a little more comfortable with belief itself. This means, that the path that made me feel stupid, the path that seemed pointless, actually had a great point to it, because it helped to prepare me for my true path, which is on it's way to me (a path that probably requires belief and trust).
And, it also helped me to remember my sense of humor and my sense of wonder (which is very important).
So Bounder, in anything that you do, try to remember that nothing is a waist of time. There is a point to all things, even if those things at the time put us at risk of feeling silly (which isn't a bad thing). Just keep a little healthy skepticism in your pocket (I always do) and question those things that seem a little 'out there'......question them, learn about them, explore them, and if you so choose, experience them yourself.
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welshwmn3
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Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 12
Location: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:52 pm Post subject: Re: What if it's not real? |
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| Bounder wrote: | I hope this post doesn't offend, but simply put- what if all this isn't real?
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I'm going to answer this without reading other people's answers first.
There are many things in this world that are real to one person that are not to another. Some examples of this are some of the more nebulous physical disabilities people have. Lupus (an autoimmune disease) is still something that *some* doctors roll their eyes at (although it's getting to be fewer and fewer doctors that do that). Chronic Fatigue Syndrome makes many people say "oh, they're just lazy".
There are psychological disorders that even the so-called experts argue about if they exist, and if they do, how to treat people who has them.
I myself may have never seen a ghost, but I know people who are completely sure they have. One of them being my husband. In telling his story, you know he believes everything he's saying when he tells his stories.
Whether gods or goddesses are "real" or not, there are still things that are not able to be explained by science, or by the evidence of our senses. Even if that *whatever* isn't a god or goddess, there is still something we don't understand out there.
And, if somebody can advance in their own path, their own life journey, by doing Journey's, interacting with animal spirits, casting out thier own demons and communicating with gods, does it matter if it's real? If it works, then it's good, right?
Just my opinion of course. But then, I kind of believe all this stuff, so I'm probably biased . |
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welshwmn3
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Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 12
Location: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Ravenari wrote: | It's important here to realise the level of control you have over the experience, and how this differs from the actual reality of insanity. Elaborate fantasy worlds... well most people have them to some degree, some are just more elaborate than others. But I have control over that fantasy world. I may not have control over what happens in the otherworlds when I journey there, but for the most part I choose when and how I journey, how long I stay there, and when I return.
There are some parts of shamanism I can't control, but the ones I can are the most important. It divides my experiences from pure hallucination. And actually, like this other member, I have had involuntary hallucinations and I can quite safely say that my experiences of shamanism, even of the underworlds in all their horror, have never approached quite the same level of purposelessness as a flashback.
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I'd like to second this.
I also have PTSD, suffer from flashbacks (still, though it's better than it has been), and I also have MPD/DID (Multiple Personality Disorder/Disociative Identity Disorder). There's a lot of my life that people can say is "made up". Many people don't believe in my alters (alternate personalities), and even some shrinks don't believe in MPD.
I know that, the experiences I've had in Journeying, the images I get of future events that end up coming true in the way I *saw* them, the information I get that I couldn't have known about in any possible way, all of those are completely different from my craziness.
Yes, I am crazy. But my craziness never stemmed from my beliefs. And my beliefs don't make my insanity any worse. |
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Kali_Ava
Wildspeaker
Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 451
Location: Tasmania
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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| welshwmn3 wrote: | | There's a lot of my life that people can say is "made up". Many people don't believe in my alters (alternate personalities), and even some shrinks don't believe in MPD. |
I know this is off-topic, but I'm can't stop creating and exploring tangents. Frankly, those people that say your disorders are made up are shitheads. PTSD and DID are not surprising combinations, and I'd like to throw a text book at most shrinks I've ever had the displeasure of meeting. It feels like half of them have never heard of a PET scan or read any psych studies in the past ten years. Fuck them.
On a less doom-and-gloom note, has your spirituality helped in recovery? (Sorry if that's too personal)
Edit: Spelling/word error
Last edited by Kali_Ava on Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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welshwmn3
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Location: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Kali_Ava wrote: |
I know this is off-topic, but I'm can't stop creating and exploring tangents. Frankly, those people that say your disorders are made up are shitheads. PTSD and DID are not surprising combinations, and I'd like to through a text book at most shrinks I've ever had the displeasure of meeting. It feels like half of them have never heard of a PET scan or read any psych studies in the past ten years. Fuck them. |
I had one counselor tell me I was a "psychiatric hypochondriac" when I told her my diagnosis of MPD (back then, it was called MPD). I've had other people who were licensed counselors (not mine, but aquaintances) tell me (without knowing I am diagnosed with MPD) that it's a 'sham diagnosis' and that anybody who claims to have it is just faking it. Needless to say, I didn't tell her my diagnosis.
| Quote: | | On a less doom-and-gloom note, has your spirituality helped in recovery? (Sorry if that's too personal) |
No, it's not too personal. If it was, I wouldn't have volunteered it on an open forum .
I really believe that my spirituality has helped. I became a pagan and walking an animist and shamanist path because Christianity wasn't doing it for me, not to help in my recovery. However, the things I've learned about Journeying outside my body have helped me in Journeying my past and heal some of my issues. Also, being on a shamanist path, my spirit helpers and animal helpers won't let me stay in denial of the hard things, the things I still need to heal from. Sometimes it's frustrating, because I want to say, "Give me a break already!" But I know, in the end, it's for my own good.
So, yeah, this has helped me a lot. But there's still a long way to go. |
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